<= Weeks -- Comments

Daynote mail: Week of 4 January - 10 January, 1999

©
This week:
Monday
Tuesday
Wednesday
Thursday
Friday
Saturday
Sunday
 
Daynotes
 
Next week
Previous
 
Top

Daynote mail and replies

Mail inclusions in the daynotes was building up the file size more than I expected or cared for, so it is time to spin off a mail page here. Sidebar "Daynotes"-link, beside each weekday, links to corresponding day in the daynote file.

General address to mail comments to: bo@leuf.com

(BTW, week numbering is according to the Swedish calendar, which this year started January in week 53. "Current" weekday is of course based on GMT+1.)

Anyone who mails me and wishes the mail to remain private should say so up front. Quoted mail may be shortened and is usually based on my reply quotes. There may be some minor overlap between what's on the daynote page and what is given here in order to give correct context.

©
Monday
Tuesday
Wednesday
Thursday
Friday
Saturday
Sunday
 
Daynotes
 
Next week
Previous
 
Top

Monday 04.01

Not a lot of mail for this day. And in any case, much previous correspondence has been already published on Jerry Pournelle's site Chaos Manor View/Mailremote and on Thompson's Daynotes. :)


©
Monday
Tuesday
Wednesday
Thursday
Friday
Saturday
Sunday
 
Daynotes
 
Next week
Previous
 
Top

Tuesday 05.01

Webpage design is an arcane artform, black magic to some, and I had occasion yesterday to make a few comments on this subject to Tom Syroid about his new homepage (Syroid Manorremote). I quote from my reply...

Thanks for taking the time to read and suggest.

I believe in feedback; kindly feedback.

Niggles are good. I can deal with niggles. RSN.

Low pressure suggestion can move mountains... given time... :)

To the best of my knowledge, I can edit the changes you suggest by selecting the properties of the individual pages and editing the page name. Do you know if there's a way to have FrontPage make the page name coincide with the title automatically ...

Sorry, no. The content of the TITLE tag would, with suitable setting become the same as the first heading, one would wish, but this may not always be a good idea. I set them manually myself, with some small idea of easing navigation and search-result display. I use Aolpress by the way, which for me has a suitable mix of WYSIWYG illusion and manual tag tweaking. It also has the advantage of reminding me what the basic html looks like when features like CSS and fancy layout options are turned off. Remember, some people do in fact browse in what is essentially text-only mode.

I don't use Frontpage. It's a bit too MS-automagic for me by the sound of it. I tend to dislike a lot of MS assumptions.

I noticed from your commentary on putting up the website that your mindset is very much as if publishing to paper. Sad to say, you don't have that level of control. With editors like Frontpage, and most any more-or-less WYSIWYG product, I admit it is easy to imagine that you can closely control the visual appearance of the webpages. This is however an illusion, because we are really dealing with content-markup, no matter how many visual features the current crop of browsers may allow.

In fact, you can pretty much assume that any given user sees only an approximation of your intended layout -- with luck, reasonably close, sometimes not even remotely close. Your own experiences of "losing" the layout gives an indication of what some people will see no matter what you do.

PS: Enjoy your discourses with Bob. He seems to be developing quite a little community on his site.

I enjoy them too, and Bob [Thompson] finds some of it interesting enough to publish on the siteremote (as does Jerry Pournelleremote). I also like the concept of websites building small "communities", and have formed a number of interesting contacts over the years.

I keep my own notebooks ... Webwriting kind of grows on you...)

That said, I admit to tweaking page appearance too, more often than not. But I always try for graceful degradability. Only relatively recently did I begin to allow myself tables, because numerous older browsers (now retired?) rendered them incorrectly, and at times illegibly. I am currently rather partial to Cascading Style Sheets (CSS-1), but do wish the implementation had been better and more consistent in the current crop of browsers. Now that Netscape is going for full html compliance (see Gecko storyremote), prospects may be brighter in that respect. We can only hope that the freely released sources for Netscape 4 get devoured by some networm somewhere...


©
Monday
Tuesday
Wednesday
Thursday
Friday
Saturday
Sunday
 
Daynotes
 
Next week
Previous
 
Top

Wednesday 06.01

Tom Syroid wrote again (Syroid Manorremote) -- some excerpts...

Thank You. I read your comments with great care several times. I like your writing style. It is much like mine in that you take the time to put meat in your sandwich. I chewed on said meat (content) until I had extracted as much of your wisdom as I could before swallowing. There's still lots left on my plate, though, so bear with me -- I'm closing on a deadline to get to work and have to put the rest in the fridge for now. <g>

Thank you kindly. I noted that you had a considered and thoughtful style of writing yourself. I've never thought of my style as "chewable with high meat content", however :) I do try to be clear, and avoid "best consumed before" limitations.

Your comment that I've published my web material with the mindset of pen and paper was very insightful. I'll be mulling on this for several days to come.

It's not unusual. New media are usually used with "old" mindsets by a great majority for a long time. Overall, significant changes tend to occur discretely in terms of new user generations, rather than incrementally with the same users. (There is/was a whole generation of office computer workers for instance who never got used to using click&point with mice, just as there was a whole generation of people who never got used to the idea of telephones for personal conversations. Lots more examples are possible.) Of course individual users can adapt, that's not the issue, it's that it takes a conscious effort to transcend the mindset and the assumptions that go with it, and most won't do that.

I'm not sure whether this is something I need to bridge, or something that needs a new approach in thinking.

It's mostly the internalized realization that no matter what you do in terms of layout, it will never, but never, render exactly the way you see it on your screen. Different viewer software (versions) on different platforms will, apart from obvious constraints such as screen size, resolution, color palette, installed typefaces, and current window size, also have varying interpretations and implementations of rendering (visualization of html content tags). Furthermore, much rendering can be customized by the user (e.g. Jerry who sets a much larger font-size as default), or even turned off altogether. That, in essence, is part of the point with html and content-tagging, that you need not be very concerned about how the rendering is implemented in individual cases. This is what allows automated indexing and information "mining". It also allows e.g. voice-synthesis reading of text (for blind users) with "correct emphasis" and other voice cues determined by the tags. "Incorrectly" tagged text will therefore often leave them clueless.

The bottom line is that there is nothing intrinsically "wrong" with nice visual layouts, but it must be done from a reasonably consistent content point of view. Examples: font-sizing instead of H1..H4 for headers is wrong, because font-sizing is a purely visual tagging (font-tags do not convey "heading"). For blind users, this would mean that they would never realize a particular line of text was a heading, because the software could then not cue them to this. In the same way, EMphasis (content) is better than Italic (visual) to convey "stress", and STRONG (content) is better than just Bold (visual). B and I are however still useful in "visual cueing", in the sense that it does allow some limited control of visual rendering, "tweaking" so to speak, so that you can "suggest" that STRONG be rendered as Bold by combining both tags, or conversely, add Bold to EMphasis instead.

Strictly speaking, most people will use word-processor tags incorrectly as well, with little understanding of how templates and style tagging of whole paragraphs should work. WYSIWYG, though it hides the messy details and lets you concentrate on simply writing, as implemented unfortunately also obstructs insight into tagging functionality. With paper printout, on the other hand, the visual end result is most often what counts, there being little "content" information that survives. Even though most documents today live on digital media with the "content" tags still alive, it is still the visual impression that people go by. This is the mindset we inherit to the web, and it is strongly evident in all the so-called "tutorials" on purely visual "cool" web design that are out there.

I'm as new and as inexperienced as they come when it comes to anything to do with this project I've undertaken, but as I noted to Bob, it is so far very rewarding and just the kind of steep learning curve my personality leans toward. As daunting as it may be at times, it is insight like yours that drives me forward.

Minor correction: it is your insight that drives you forward. All I can do is provide pointers based on your comments and questions.

I'm beginning to think my MS'ness comes more from habit and experience than informed choice. But to change my tools at this point would throw my whole being into complete and utter chaos.

Like it or not, the shape of computing and interfaces has to a large extent been shaped by MS (even though many concepts have not originated with MS). By all means use the tools that you find comfortable, but do also try to learn their pros and cons, strengths and weaknesses, features and limitations, so that your use is an informed one. This consideration is true of all tools, and of course one's grasp of the tools will always be more or less imperfect.

Specific to web tools, you must develop a sense of the basics of html tagging so that you can on occasion go to the raw html and move or adjust tags manually. (Re tools: Aolpress for example easily allows raw edit, and in addition formats the html with indentations that makes visual inspection easier.) This awareness should include an understanding that some html-tags are proprietary to particular software and not part of the general HTML standard, and should therefore be avoided. It should also include awareness of the current web-navigation conventions and user expectations to guide selection of appropriate link design/layout.

Hopefully this year I will be able to find the resources to set up a Linux box and explore some new horizons. I like the concept of Open Source and choice. Very much.

So do I, and I expect in due time to have several Linux systems up and running. Everything is a question of time, and I am somewhat constrained by having to maintain a certain compatibility with clients for document files. This mandates that I run the current version Office, which is why I sit with NT. On the other hand, I am drifting in the direction of keeping as much as possible as (correctly tagged) html, rtf and just plain text. Now and then I do legacy imports (converting older material to e.g. rtf or html) and cross-platform experiments, and it is interesting how much can be done as long as one can stay out of the more proprietary formats. With the proper tools, I am discovering that much original writing can now be done in html format, allowing for very effective crosslinking and notetaking, and only later imported into the necessary submission format. Most of this kind of work is essentially platform-independent, except perhaps for that last step, and thus ensures a longer lifetime for the archived material.

I do very much look forward to reading your personal insights/daynotes. But work calls soon and it will have to wait until later tonight.

That's the joy of Internet, email and web: fully asynchronous and stateless, it awaits _your_ convenience. (Unlike for example the telephone.)

I am contemplating at this stage collecting some html basics and "web insight" on some pages somewhere, probably the business domain since it sort of ties in with my facilitation profile. I will then place a link here to this material.


©
Monday
Tuesday
Wednesday
Thursday
Friday
Saturday
Sunday
 
Daynotes
 
Next week
Previous
 
Top

Thursday 07.01

Well, I did get another reply off to Tom Syroid, who asked about Cascading Style Sheets. An excerpt...

Could you give me a brief insight (1000 words or less <g>) into what exactly CSS's (Cascading Style Sheets -- correct?) are?

Let me put it this way, CSS is the "correct" way to visually layout a page -- or rather to "suggest a preferred visual rendering" for a whole set of html pages. The advantage is that you can set up a "global" style common to many pages without having to be too specific in each page about how to visually render anything.

A CSS file is a flat textfile that specifies visual characteristics for the html tags named therein. For example, a generic body text is delimited by tag P (paragraph), hence if I in my CSS write the row

P { text-indent: 0.5em; font-family: "century schoolbook", serif }

this specifies that I want a half-em indentation on the first line of each paragraph, and when possible to use typeface Century Schoolbook, or failing that the default serif font (typically Times). You can be as specific or not as you like, give several alternatives, and take up all kinds of characteristics. These of course may or may not render in a given browser, have unexpected side-effects, etc., but it's all part of the fun. (...)

I went on a fair bit more, but am reworking some of this into a general text to be found at http://www.leuf.com/fc3/web/index.html (very rough draft at the moment) and so won't bother with all the details here.

Tom went on to note about about sites of this nature...

Regarding your desire for a system of finding/exploring quality sites to visit, I believe we (you, I, others of the same mindset) already have a system that is small and fledgling, but expanding in ever greater circles: we find a place on our sites to promote other people's efforts; people who have -- in our humble opinion -- something of quality to offer the visitor.

This has always been the best mode of "advertising": personal recommendation. Look at Amazon Book's reasonably intelligent take on this: "people who bought this book also liked books by..."

As a visitor to your pages, if I like how you write and structure your ideas, then there's a good chance that I'll find another such site at the end of one of your recommendations.

That depends on how off-the-wall my recommendations are :)


©
Monday
Tuesday
Wednesday
Thursday
Friday
Saturday
Sunday
 
Daynotes
 
Next week
Previous
 
Top

Friday 08.01

Robert (Bob) Thompson (homepage) sent a comment on the taxation figures and had an observation about my mail layout here...

That's incredible. Having to gross $13K to get $1K worth of goods & services is so far beyond outrageous that I don't know a word for it.

This particular kind of calculation is rarely attempted or presented, or even fully understood by most. Most people only see the obvious withholding of income tax, and that is all they care about. The rest they don't relate to; to them it looks like the employer's problem. This is of course in part by design -- _direct_ personal taxation at this level would never have been acceptable. I would like to think. But then again, on reflection, it is amazing that people stand for e.g. +25% value added tax on virtually all transactions, albeit it is half-hidden by being already factored into the visible prices. I believe the average EU level of VAT is somewhere in the region of +15 to +20% these days. There has been some discussion about "harmonizing" it overall to +20%...

It's lucky that you Swedes are generally pretty laid-back, or you'd have had politicians hanging from lamp posts years ago. Perhaps you're too laid-back.

Yes, Swedes as a whole are notorious for being authority-accepting and complaining-but-can't-do-anything-about-it. Actually it may be more general-European, Northern European at any rate, only more "refined" up here :)

How do you pronounce your last name?

Well, in Swedish with the o-umlaut sound, rather similar to the French in "boeuf". About 50% of Swedes get it right on first try, although the name is strictly speaking sort of Dutch or Flemmish. (See the history of it at http://www.leuf.org/family/leufname.htm) Since in Swedish "leuf" sounds the same as "löv" (leaf), the usage in Canada, by that branch of the family became to pronounce it as "leaf" (and in fact one member actually changed the spelling to fit). Hence the subtle wordplay. In my visits to the US in later years, I find that most English speakers can manage an acceptable Swedish "eu" sound when prompted, so I've usually stayed with that. In addition, "Bo" is no longer unheard of, so I've not bothered to go with "Bob" as I was called during my Canadian years.

If I may make a layout suggestion, the fonts you use to quote mail on your Daynotes page are entirely too small.

Yes, of course, thanks for the feedback on this. It's not a FONT setting as such, I just used SMALL (one step) plus the content tags CITE and CODE respectively, so ultimately it depends on the browser defaults for CITE and CODE and size steps. But I will remove the SMALL. When I use small for "notes/comments" elsewhere, does this too become much too small with your settings? For example, the sidebar day-links?

I removed the SMALL in the move to a mail page.


©
Monday
Tuesday
Wednesday
Thursday
Friday
Saturday
Sunday
 
Daynotes
 
Next week
Previous
 
Top

Saturday 09.01

Bob sent me some screenshots to illustrate the excessively small texts. After looking at them, I agreed that removing the SMALL tags was a good idea.

Ok, thanks, now I understand better what was happening. A picture is worth...

...the embedded "small" comments you use appear similarly tiny.

Albeit usually "normally" tiny (sidebar). The "BTW" comment [week 1 intro] was in fact SMALL x2 here, not something I normally do. I normally use only 1 x SMALL for what feel like the equivalent of a footnote or aside, indicating something the reader can skip on a fast read-through...

And here's another screen shot showing the even harder-to-read embedded mail quotes.

What was happening here was that the CSS specified for CODE a size reduction, 0.8em (80%), and SMALL took this down another step. Evidently Netscape and IE (with your settings) got a different result than Aolpress or Opera, where the final CODE and comment size seemed about equal (perhaps because of the default rendering of CODE which I find rather large). I suppose my (bold) comments might have been marginally acceptable in size, but as mentioned I removed all SMALL in mail quotes when I moved it all to a separate mail page yesterday.


©
Monday
Tuesday
Wednesday
Thursday
Friday
Saturday
Sunday
 
Daynotes
 
Next week
Previous
 
Top

Sunday 10.01

Browsing Tom Syroid's latest daynotes, I was impressed by his descriptions, and went on to sent this reply to him regarding earlier mails about CSS...

... BTW, appreciated your colorful description of the life of a heavy-duty mechanic. You give voice to the reality of a multitude of others with much less ability to describe their situation to others.

Congratulations oh worldly Leuf-sun, it would appear you have led yet another confused student onto the path of higher learning.

... Hang on while I carve another notch into my space-bar... :)

> > [MS-philosophy]

Interesting to note that until I started playing with web publishing, all this was completely masked from my consciousness by my willing admission to the "MS-way" of thought and my consequent exclusive use of MS products.

Interesting to note too, that this is largely due to the marked "defects" in current html-publishing software and lack of consistency that force users to decend to the source level. In word processing and desk-top publishing, this kind of low-level tweaking is completely anachronistic (yes, I know there are many who still prefer writing in tag-oriented software, EMACS, LaTex or what have you, usually DOS or Unix, but the vast majority do not) and either unnecessary or impossible. Which is not the same as saying these WYSIWYG products do not do some weird things that would be "easy" to correct if you _could_ drop into raw tag-mode.

> > ... karmatic theory ...

Thankfully, I'm very familiar with said theory.

It's a very helpful view on life to have awareness of this. I have gained some further hope for humanity when even the Opera show devotes much airtime to explaining these concepts.

"You will see this material again, so pay attention".

Precisely, even if "it is wearing another pair of pants" :)


Bob also responded to my changes to text size...

Yes, they're all much easier to read now.

Your site is looking good.

Thanks, we all keep trying...


©
Week list

All original material copyright bo@leuf.com.
Comments and discussion welcome.


Back to top -- Week list